Career day today... wasn't that fun. Second period, got the educational outreach specialist from the Autry Museum of Western Heritage. Well, before she showed up, I thought she was Western Civ, so I prepped the kids with all sorts of questions about Rome, Greece, etc.... nope- it was the American West, with no bearing at all on my class, and even less on what I had them think about. Fortunately she had a project ready to go, so after questions we made Native American baskets for half an hour. I had to help the broken-arm kid, and despite between us having 3 hands I think our basket turned out to be around what a quadrapalegic 3-year-old would have made... (preemptive apologies to anyone with a parapalegic 3-year-old... or any over sensitive folks... that's just what it looked like) Third period feaured a cut-rate junior staffer from some state senator's office... not to be arrogant, but she wouldn't have even merited a call-back when I worked for Gore. She had about 15 minutes worth of stuff prepared for a 60 minute class, none of it interactive. So the kids of course went nuts, and I really wanted to ask her to leave, but she kept sitting there, talking randomly at them, while I tried to shush them without interfering with her babble. When she finally left, the class was so ridiculous that we couldn't do anything else and had to copy the "making choices" paragraph until the end of the period... lovely.

Damn am I bitter about Iraq

Catereed: ps tell me your stnad on iraq.
Catereed: so i figure you are AGAINST.
JW1679: incredibly bitter that senate dems wimped out
JW1679: so pissed at Clinton, Edwards, Biden, etc.
JW1679: so dishonest of them to agree to the resolution for "running in 2004" reasons
JW1679: when they dont' really want war
JW1679: btw- check out Howard Dean
JW1679: vt. governor
JW1679: my pick for 2004
Catereed: may i ask, though, to be devils advocate, when it is exactly we should intervene?
Catereed: anywhere....
Catereed: not just iraq.
Catereed: Saltercrs@aol.com is chucks e-mail, btw.
JW1679: when we've convinced the international community that it it's legit to intervene
JW1679: we should have somebody... anybody... on our side other than our lapdogs in britain
Catereed: give an example.
Catereed: i will agree, however, that the times article this morning made me drop my breakfest.
Catereed: tommy franks as leader of iraq. can you imagine?
JW1679: in '91, Bush I bothered to line up an international coalition
JW1679: got UN approval
JW1679: Korea- we got UN approval, went in under their auspices
JW1679: anytime where something internationally illegal HAS ALREADY HAPPENED
JW1679: bush's preemptive strike policy throws out all the international precedent, tradition, and legality since the vienna congress in 1815
Catereed: isnt (devils's advocate, dont hate me!) not allowing the inspectors in something that has already happened?
Catereed: could we not argue that it is not preemptive, but a legitimate fear now exists b/c he will not let us in?
JW1679: but he has let us in to most places
JW1679: and besides... we shipped him 3 different strains of anthrax in the 80s
JW1679: it's our shit
JW1679: for chrissakes we should have UN inspectors in the US checking our labs
Catereed: is most good enough. i agree that even if he has weapons of "mass destruction" then he will need a camal to swim over here to bother us....
JW1679: also... the latest CIA report- he has no plans to use them on the US... except if we attack
Catereed: have we ever given reason for others to believe that we are trying to use them on others? we should not have un inspectors in our places.
Catereed: everyone knows we have enough nukes to wipe out the rold.
Catereed: world
JW1679: and if we attack, what do you think he'll do with them? Leave them where they are? Turn them over to the UN? or maybe give them to Al Queda or Hamas or another group that can successfully hide them
Catereed: who needs to see that
Catereed: fair point
JW1679: well, we're the cowboys threatening to invade without provocation
JW1679: against international opinion
Catereed: i do not think we should go in,.
JW1679: who need to be appeased by the international community
Catereed: but i also think we need to get rid of him, if for no other reason than to show that the 91 campaign was not in vain.
Catereed: especially today with the announcement of the guy from 91
Catereed: did you hear about that?
JW1679: ?
Catereed: apparently the first guy who was shot down in desert storm....
Catereed: who was first listed as MIA
Catereed: and was then announced as dead
Catereed: is now (12 years later) possibly still alive in iraq according to intleligence reporst.
Catereed: how convenient.
JW1679: oh of course
JW1679: frankly, i think that '91 went fine
Catereed: so we are basically creating reasons to go in, for the average idiot american who believes that a soldier from 12 years ago is still alive and in capture.
JW1679: we drove them back from kuwait
JW1679: and returned borders to how they were
JW1679: that's how wars are supposed to go
Catereed: the true irony that kuwaites are shooting at us now...
JW1679: regime change should only be undertaken with the most severe cases
Catereed: fair enough.
Catereed: i do not think going in solves anything....
Catereed: however...
JW1679: think about it, how is the middle east going to react if we have Tommy Franks building an American client state in Iraq
JW1679: they'll be thrilled right
JW1679: give 'em the old Israeli '48 welcome
Catereed: LOL
Catereed: well, the american love of isreal needs to end right now.
Catereed: this is getting ridiculous.
JW1679: sharon's a thug
Catereed: did you hear about the idiot cab driver.
JW1679: but arafat's now better
JW1679: nope
Catereed: sorry, bus driver.
JW1679: no better rather
Catereed: he saw a passanger trip getting onto the bus, so he went to help him, and noticed he had a bomb strapped to his chest. yesterday in tel aviv i believe.
Catereed: whoops. trying to do the right thing can get you killed.
Catereed: sharon is an idiot, but they voted for someone who would take a radical stand.
Catereed: far be it for us to say they can not vote for who they want.
JW1679: quite... look at our wonderful prez
Catereed: touche
JW1679: have you read the projected stats on an invasion?
JW1679: $200 billion
Catereed: no what are they?
Catereed: i am afraid to ask
JW1679: 2500-5000 american servicemen dead
JW1679: 10,000 wounded
JW1679: 25-100k iraqi military casualties
JW1679: 50-100k iraqi civillian casualties
Catereed: just for arguments sake, who do they envision fighting back, after our desert storm experience?
Catereed: people using their underwear to surrender....
JW1679: they learned from that
JW1679: no more fighting in the open desert against our tank columns
JW1679: all their military is pulled back
JW1679: so it's mostly urban fighting
JW1679: their Surface to Air missle emplacements are on top of schools and hospitals so we can't bomb them
JW1679: it'll be less like desert storm, more like Mogadishu (Black Hawk Down)
JW1679: except instead of a handful of untrained gunmen
JW1679: we have a relatively well-trained and loyal army
Catereed: intersting sidebar....
JW1679: of a couple hundred thousand
Catereed: the guy who wrote black hawk down went to my undergad.
Catereed: i heard him speak when the book, not the movie, was realeades.
Catereed: jeff, we would win.
Catereed: no one would argue that.
Catereed: however, should we?
Catereed: i do nto htink so, but people die in war.
JW1679: oh i know we would win
JW1679: my cousin's husband was in Somalia
JW1679: he brought back audio tapes that he recorded while there
JW1679: it was horrible
JW1679: we lost 3000 people on 9/11
JW1679: conservative projections have at least that many just in American military
JW1679: what about all the iraqi civillians who would die?
JW1679: it's just not worth it
JW1679: with no credible evidence
JW1679: and what this would do (even worse) to international relations
JW1679: pakistan, now justified because they're our allies, using the "bush doctrine" of preemptive action to nuke India because it "might invade us someday???"
Catereed: would you argue that saddam is using his people? he is using the people of his country,....
JW1679: sure he is
JW1679: he's evil
JW1679: but lots of countries have evil leaders
JW1679: North Korea has incredibly evil leaders
JW1679: we almost went to war with them in 94
JW1679: estimates- 100k american lives, 900k koreans
JW1679: we didn't, we used diplomacy
JW1679: things calmed down
JW1679: they didn't nuke anyone
Catereed: so why do you think we are going in? what is your HONEST opinion?
JW1679: because bush is a stupid, simple, (but fairly honest) man and he thinks we should because he sees the world in a manichean black/white good/evil way
JW1679: and his dishonest advisors see it as a way to win the 2002 elections
JW1679: so they support him
JW1679: and chicken-shit democrats think that they can't win in 2004 unless they sign on
JW1679: so daschle, clinton, gephardt, and the others dishonestly went ahead for it
Catereed: so why not go into all these other countries you menioned? why iraq now?
JW1679: because to bush they're extra evil because they tried to kill his dad
Catereed: that is a scary thought.
Catereed: if this is all abotu his dad i mean.
JW1679: not all about... but bush sees things in absolutes
JW1679: and trying to kill ones dad makes you a badguy
Catereed: where did this come from, in your opinion?
Catereed: i mean,....
Catereed: after being prez for 2 years all of sudden....
Catereed: he gives a shit.
JW1679: 9/11 made it possible
Catereed: it is a YEAR later.
JW1679: read nicolas kristoff's NY times op/ed
JW1679: he's been gunning for iraq since 9/12/01
JW1679: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/11/opinion/11KRIS.html
Catereed: i can imagine
Catereed: i will read it, but i just get worried that we are becoming so political correct that we will never intervene anywhere, even when we need to...
JW1679: we should intervene in Sudan
JW1679: 1 million people have died in a ridiculous civil war
JW1679: we should probably intervene in Columbia
Catereed: what should be do?
Catereed: install tommy franks as prezz?
JW1679: i don't know for certain, but the first step is honestly addressing the problem for our country and the world
JW1679: like Leo said in wed.'
JW1679: s West Wing
JW1679: does it only stop when we plant an american flag in Mecca?
JW1679: not sure
Catereed: i agree.
Catereed: i am not sure when we start, or stop....
Catereed: it is a very hard call.
Catereed: but at the same time, i want to make sure that we don;t look like an idopt country.
JW1679: i think we look like bullies and buffoons now
Catereed: idiot country.... i worry about that. that is my ethnocentricity
Catereed: we do look like bullies
Catereed: but if we talk the talk, and then do not walk the walk..... we look like idiots.
Catereed: this is so funny.
JW1679: eh?
Catereed: my old roomate and i got into this last night.
Catereed: he is of the same mindset as you
Catereed: he is really pissed about this whole thinf.
JW1679: i can't even convey how pissed i am
Catereed: i am getting the messgae very clear.
Catereed: :-)
JW1679: mostly at senate Dems though
JW1679: republicans like mccain, or even hawks like lieberman
JW1679: i can respect because they present their values clearly
JW1679: it's bush's advisors and cowardly dems i despise